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EricO
02-25-2009, 09:34 PM
I know I've asked similar questions to this before but has it been completely ruled out for this model year?:chair: Or are we playing a game with Mathews and PSE?:mad0215:

Daniel Boone
02-26-2009, 12:00 AM
I doubt Elite gives Mathews or PSE thought when designing bows.

I think Kevins designs are trying to give you maximum speed without sacrificing accuracy. There are limits.
DB

ctious
02-26-2009, 12:06 AM
just for fun they should make a 6in bow... just to show them up... then market it as just a pure speed bow.. special order only... with month wait time...

Rattler
02-26-2009, 12:23 AM
I doubt Elite gives Mathews or PSE thought when designing bows.

I think Kevins designs are trying to give you maximum speed without sacrificing accuracy. There are limits.
DB

There has never been a more WRONG statement....there are NO limits! If we limit ourselves we would still be shooting a stick of osage and sinew!:bow:

cbarber
02-26-2009, 12:30 AM
there maybe limits with CURRENT technology. alot of people said a few years back that 300fps + would be tuff to achieve. look where we are at, almost every company has a bow out that will do 340. new developements are made everyday, don't limit yourself to yesterday.

i for one would love to see a pure speed bow from elite. 6 inch brace height and all, because we know they are not shootable

Daniel Boone
02-26-2009, 12:32 AM
There has never been a more WRONG statement....there are NO limits! If we limit ourselves we would still be shooting a stick of osage and sinew!:bow:

Most will tell you that. Atleast limits that one can manufactuer safely.
DB

Jaben620
02-26-2009, 12:35 AM
The GT500 gets a 346 IBO with a 7 inch brace height. If they dropped it down to a six inch brace height it be around 355 and 5 inches of brace height would get around 365 and an amputated wrist!

Ill stick with my Z28!:duhclap:

cbarber
02-26-2009, 12:37 AM
The GT500 gets a 346 IBO with a 7 inch brace height. If they dropped it down to a six inch brace height it be around 355 and 5 inches of brace height would get around 365 and an amputated wrist!

Ill stick with my Z28!:duhclap:

you are probably pretty close with that statement, but that is todays tecnology that you know of. gotta move forward.

Daniel Boone
02-26-2009, 12:37 AM
The GT500 gets a 346 IBO with a 7 inch brace height. If they dropped it down to a six inch brace height it be around 355 and 5 inches of brace height would get around 365 and an amputated wrist!

Ill stick with my Z28!:duhclap:

7" inch works for me. Dont want no 6" bruise on my arm.
DB

ctious
02-26-2009, 12:38 AM
The GT500 gets a 346 IBO with a 7 inch brace height. If they dropped it down to a six inch brace height it be around 355 and 5 inches of brace height would get around 365 and an amputated wrist!

Ill stick with my Z28!:duhclap:


the rev cam seems to get better speeds in the longer lengths.. i would bet a 6in brace bow will hit close to 360....

Daniel Boone
02-26-2009, 12:43 AM
the rev cam seems to get better speeds in the longer lengths.. i would bet a 6in brace bow will hit close to 360....


Am I picturing someone with a carbon arrow in there arm:noidea:
DB

ctious
02-26-2009, 12:45 AM
Am I picturing someone with a carbon arrow in there arm:noidea:
DB


well we are not going to shoot it...lol.... its for all those speed freaks out there..lol

cbarber
02-26-2009, 12:50 AM
Am I picturing someone with a carbon arrow in there arm:noidea:
DB

you are right db, lets just stay where we are at with the bows of today. they don't need to be any better than they already are. good enough, thanks Kevin for all you have done. please don't make anything new for us


if you guys don't want a 6" bow, don't buy one. but there are plenty of guys asking for one. speaking of that, how many x-forces, katera's or reezens do you think have been sold? probably not to many?

Daniel Boone
02-26-2009, 12:54 AM
you are right db, lets just stay where we are at with the bows of today. they don't need to be any better than they already are. good enough, thanks Kevin for all you have done. please don't make anything new for us


if you guys don't want a 6" bow, don't buy one. but there are plenty of guys asking for one. speaking of that, how many x-forces, katera's or reezens do you think have been sold? probably not to many?

Some feel the need for speed. Go for it. Im told old to chase the speed game. Now if I read where you guys limbs explode or the arrow go through the arm. Ill say gosh darn it that hurts.:yay_jump:
DB

cbarber
02-26-2009, 12:57 AM
Some feel the need for speed. Go for it. Im told old to chase the speed game. Now if I read where you guys limbs explode or the arrow go through the arm. Ill say gosh darn it that hurts.:yay_jump:
DB

i will probably say it hurts to.......... if it happens

Daniel Boone
02-26-2009, 12:58 AM
i will probably say it hurts to.......... if it happens


I know two of them that went Boom. Havent heard of any reezen yet. But its going to happen. Pushing the limit buttons.
DB

ctious
02-26-2009, 01:09 AM
well a 6in bow would be good for the short draws... anyone under 28in... they will keep speed....

Maybee-R
02-26-2009, 01:27 AM
I game!! If Kevin says it will hold up Ill shoot it.
Until then Im happy goofing around with what I have.
I think the easier way to find more speed might be in arrow design. make an unbreakable arrow shaft that will hold spine and lighter weight that wont snap like a toothpick and absorb shock from the bow you will see crazy speeds.
High country is on the path of finding it, Ill wait for another 5-10 years for someone to perfect it though.

jkcerda
02-26-2009, 02:23 AM
I game!! If Kevin says it will hold up Ill shoot it.
Until then Im happy goofing around with what I have.
I think the easier way to find more speed might be in arrow design. make an unbreakable arrow shaft that will hold spine and lighter weight that wont snap like a toothpick and absorb shock from the bow you will see crazy speeds.
High country is on the path of finding it, Ill wait for another 5-10 years for someone to perfect it though.
i'll help, short BH bows aer ok with me, I have a 26.5" DL, so, short NH is no issue.

tim doll
02-26-2009, 03:17 AM
There are so many different things to look for in a bow, sure speed sells but look at it this way. We have a fast bow thats forgiving, smooth to draw with a solid back wall. I think Kevin designs these bows with more than speed in mind, and I am sure happy that he does... okay I will get off my :soapbox:

jdduffy
02-26-2009, 06:34 AM
I doubt Elite gives Mathews or PSE thought when designing bows.

I think Kevins designs are trying to give you maximum speed without sacrificing accuracy. There are limits.
DB

I agree with D.B. on this. I'm all for speed but whatever you do to get those high speeds is some kind of trade off for shootabilty.

Rattler
02-26-2009, 07:11 AM
Most will tell you that. Atleast limits that one can manufactuer safely.
DB

They can be manufactured safely with todays technology.....alot of you just dont know what materials or engineering is out there. I know how to do it, and I dont even know all of the technological materials that can be used. 370+ with a 6-6.5" BH is doable. Quote me on that! With suppressors now on bows the short bh wont kill your arm either. The only think you might see is a stiffer draw force curve.

standsitter
02-26-2009, 07:56 AM
Although the low brace speed bows get alot of attention they do NOT sell very well, the last thing EO needs right now is to come out with a short brace speedbow and have it sell less than 100 units. I admit it would be fun to be at the top of the heap on this but it would be a massive outlay of cash for devolpment, then models, and finally finished bows and there would very likely be very little return on the investment.

cbarber
02-26-2009, 09:03 AM
Although the low brace speed bows get alot of attention they do NOT sell very well, the last thing EO needs right now is to come out with a short brace speedbow and have it sell less than 100 units. I admit it would be fun to be at the top of the heap on this but it would be a massive outlay of cash for devolpment, then models, and finally finished bows and there would very likely be very little return on the investment.

what are you talking about? have you heard of the katera, reezen, xforce.its bs that they don't sell, all of them where/are flagship bows. i am not buying that statement. hoyt probably sold more kateras last year than elite sold total

EricO
02-26-2009, 09:17 AM
The 82nd sold alot last year too.... (Then replaced a lot of limbs)

north slope
02-26-2009, 09:18 AM
I am a midget, I have a 27 inch draw. I would love to see a Elite with a 6 inch brace height. I think guys with smaller draws can shoot 6 inch brace height and get away with it. I used to shoot a Hoyt Super-tec (6-inch bh) and loved it.

Rattler
02-26-2009, 09:26 AM
agreed Corey! developmental cost is not what you think with some of todays technology and engineering. not only would alot of short draw archers get them, admittedly or not we all have some speed freak in us!

EricO
02-26-2009, 09:28 AM
I used to shoot a Hoyt Super-tec (6-inch bh) and loved it.

+1 The supertec was a **** of a bow.

cbarber
02-26-2009, 09:56 AM
The 82nd sold alot last year too.... (Then replaced a lot of limbs)

how in the heck could i forget that bow

why are some of you guys scared of bows shooting faster? i guess i don't understand. why do some think their is going to be a "price to pay" or "no shootability" dang near everybow put out is better than the last.

please give me some good reasons to not make a speed bow. and don't give me this crap of 6" bh will cut your wrist off, or its to harsh, try pull it back cold, etc.

ICH BIN
02-26-2009, 10:28 AM
I'll get a post at least,

The reason is: Kevin is scared he can't beat the speed of other bows out right now. He can't make a 6"bh bow do 360fps. He has tried and he doesn't have it in him. Rather than be embarrassed he prefers to avoid the sub 7"bh bow category. Right Kevin?

Just good ribbing, in the past if you challenged him and said he can't he posted up, we'll see.

E

cbarber
02-26-2009, 10:31 AM
I'll get a post at least,

The reason is: Kevin is scared he can't beat the speed of other bows out right now. He can't make a 6"bh bow do 360fps. He has tried and he doesn't have it in him. Rather than be embarrassed he prefers to avoid the sub 7"bh bow category. Right Kevin?

Just good ribbing, in the past if you challenged him and said he can't he posted up, we'll see.

E

lol, Kevin will be here shortly

Smeagol
02-26-2009, 10:41 AM
The 82nd sold alot last year too.... (Then replaced a lot of limbs)

Wasn't that the General?

Smeagol
02-26-2009, 10:43 AM
There has never been a more WRONG statement....there are NO limits! If we limit ourselves we would still be shooting a stick of osage and sinew!:bow:

There are these funny laws called physics. Until we are no longer subject to those laws, there'll be limits. But, it's good to push progress up to those limits!

ntypicl11
02-26-2009, 10:47 AM
Come on Kevin, tease us a little!!! Dependability has little to do with speed, its the quality of the materials that makes the diff. If ya don't like low brace bows, don't shoot it, plenty will. I for one, can't stand long ata bows, anything over 34 bites in my book, but I hunt in tight quarters, I don't shoot too many spots, yet. When I do (spot) I shoot rather well, even with the old 6-inch brace Hoyt I used to have, I was actually more accurate with that then I was with my Syn. This was before I even knew anything about form, muchless anything about bows. It was my first bow, it wasn't fast enough, or light enough. Elite will have my piggybank when the new speedster comes out, until then I have to look elsewhere, that sucks! I will somehow get a faster bow this year, I just pray that it is an Elite, And soon. Marketshare guys, marketshare!!!

Rattler
02-26-2009, 11:36 AM
Kevin has already stated he built one that would do 370 several years ago but no one would like the draw force curve on it. So it CAN be done.

ICH BIN
02-26-2009, 11:53 AM
Kevin has already stated he built one that would do 370 several years ago but no one would like the draw force curve on it. So it CAN be done.

Really, I don't remember seeing him post that anywhere before?

I have no doubt it can be done.

E

Elite_Kevin
02-26-2009, 01:12 PM
The Fastest IBO legal I have ever made with a 6.25" brace was 372 fps. :superman:

I already hear a lot of you guys say the GT or Z is stiff!!!!

To shoot this 372 fps bow, you better have had at least a one year membership to a gym and been there at least 4 days a week since you joined!!!:muscleman:

This was a bow I wouldn't want to shoot all day myself. And no it wasn't a binary cam bow.

Rattler
02-26-2009, 01:24 PM
pump it up! you can call me Dorian Yates :)

whatcha gonna do when these 24" pythons get ahold of you brutha!

:D

Elite_Kevin
02-26-2009, 01:27 PM
Elite would have to send a years prescription of Balco products for most guys to pull it at 60#, it was a beast of a bow.

CATrapper
02-26-2009, 01:34 PM
Compromise. Pump up the Rev cam slightly and shorten the brace on the GT. There is enough customers who would purchase such a bow.

plotmoth
02-26-2009, 01:46 PM
To shoot this 372 fps bow, you better have had at least a one year membership to a gym and been there at least 4 days a week since you

Bring it on! I'll shoot it!

ICH BIN
02-26-2009, 01:47 PM
The Fastest IBO legal I have ever made with a 6.25" brace was 372 fps. :superman:

I already hear a lot of you guys say the GT or Z is stiff!!!!

To shoot this 372 fps bow, you better have had at least a one year membership to a gym and been there at least 4 days a week since you joined!!!:muscleman:

This was a bow I wouldn't want to shoot all day myself. And no it wasn't a binary cam bow.

Thanks Kevin.

Isn't it intriguing that one bow at 70lbs can be pulled by many, yet another bow at 70lbs can only be pulled by those with substantial muscular power?

I agree with Catrapper, increase the pre load of the GT, drop the BH 1", and tweak the DFC a little to make a 360fps 6"BH bow. I think that would sell, even though I wouldn't buy one.

E

cbarber
02-26-2009, 02:12 PM
I think that would sell, even though I wouldn't buy one.

E

thats ok itchy, i'll take 2,lol

Rattler
02-26-2009, 02:24 PM
I'll take one 2

Oregonbowhunter
02-26-2009, 02:41 PM
The Fastest IBO legal I have ever made with a 6.25" brace was 372 fps. :superman:

I already hear a lot of you guys say the GT or Z is stiff!!!!

To shoot this 372 fps bow, you better have had at least a one year membership to a gym and been there at least 4 days a week since you joined!!!:muscleman:

This was a bow I wouldn't want to shoot all day myself. And no it wasn't a binary cam bow.
Kevin,
What was the draw weight of the bow that you were doing 370 with and how does the draw compare to my 100# GTO?
When I first got my bow I wasn't sure I would like it but now my other bows are backups and the GTO is all I shoot now even on the 3-D course.

OBH

knife2sharp
02-26-2009, 03:36 PM
The Fastest IBO legal I have ever made with a 6.25" brace was 372 fps. :superman:


I think they're asking if Elite is going to develop and sell a bow to compete with those other bows, not whether or not one can be designed.

standsitter
02-26-2009, 04:12 PM
The Fastest IBO legal I have ever made with a 6.25" brace was 372 fps. :superman:


I think they're asking if Elite is going to develop and sell a bow to compete with those other bows, not whether or not one can be designed.
Anything is possible, but I doubt it for the reasons I gave earlier.

cbarber
02-26-2009, 04:24 PM
Anything is possible, but I doubt it for the reasons I gave earlier.

and i will ask you again, how many 6" bows do you think hoyt, pse, bowtech, and mathews have sold or will sell?

standsitter
02-26-2009, 04:41 PM
and i will ask you again, how many 6" bows do you think hoyt, pse, bowtech, and mathews have sold or will sell?
Not enough to warrant the effort, 6" BH might sell, less than 6" not many would sell, the all out speedbow market is small, the short draw market....... hmmm? only 31 Cudas ordered so that question is answered very nicely already.

cbarber
02-26-2009, 04:55 PM
i am trying to understand only 31 cudas? that blows my mind. i think 32 people complained when elite banished the cuda.

i think alot of people are scrathing their heads, me included. as to why the gt500 can ibo at 346 with a 7" bh, why elite does not put out a 6"-6.5" bh bow and grab back some of the speed freaks.

speed was a major selling point for elite,and that got people shooting their bows.

pizar11
02-26-2009, 05:18 PM
You don't consider 346fps to be speed?
I do.

cbarber
02-26-2009, 05:36 PM
You don't consider 346fps to be speed?
I do.

its fast, just not the fastest. elite is elite...right?

pizar11
02-26-2009, 05:45 PM
Yes Elite is elite. Think about the time period of when these bows were released compared to other companies. Give 'em a chance and a little time and they will prolly impress us even more.

Rattler
02-26-2009, 05:46 PM
right on the $$$$$ Corey! I have a 29" draw....i am a speed freak. Why? well lets just say a faster, heavier arrow knocks the crap out of the quarry and i LOVE that sound!

so bring it Elite!

cbarber
02-26-2009, 05:51 PM
Yes Elite is elite. Think about the time period of when these bows were released compared to other companies. Give 'em a chance and a little time and they will prolly impress us even more.

i will give them all the time they need. there is a reason why i buy them. i believe they are one of the best, if not the best bow on the market for all out performance and shooting.

i just love fast bows, and i can't wait to have elite's if they release one.
do we need arrows to go 360+, no. but do i want one, yes!

coloradodave
02-26-2009, 06:01 PM
Can't wait to see the all new Elite "IROC" speed bow...

P.Smash
02-27-2009, 12:08 AM
i for one would love to see a pure speed bow from elite. 6 inch brace height and all, because we know they are not shootable

I own a Hoyt Hyper-tec, 29 inch draw, 6 inch BH. It has never hit my forearm or wrist. I can shoot fist sized groups at 50 yards all day. I love that old bow, killed a pile of deer with it too. It's now my back up bow.

Cougar Mag
02-27-2009, 12:33 AM
The only think you might see is a stiffer draw force curve.

Correct. Take a look at how many of the new "speed" bows with a harsh draw are being sold on AT and even here locally where I live. Guys bought them brand new are in most cases are now taking a beating when selling them. I went through the short brace height, rough drawing phase years ago when younger. I don't need that anymore, and they just aren't as much fun to shoot. Smooth is in and with todays technology you can have smooth and good speed without tearing up a shoulder.

CamG
02-27-2009, 12:38 AM
Correct. Take a look at how many of the new "speed" bows with a harsh draw are being sold on AT and even here locally where I live. Guys bought them brand new are in most cases are now taking a beating when selling them. I went through the short brace height, rough drawing phase years ago when younger. I don't need that anymore, and they just aren't as much fun to shoot. Smooth is in and with todays technology you can have smooth and good speed without tearing up a shoulder.

My second favorite bow of all time is a Bowtech 82nd. This bow is smokin' fast, the draw is plenty smooth and I shoot groups to 40 yards every bit as good as I do with any of my other taller brace bows. The key is the ATA, not BH. Oh, and I've had total reconstruction of my right shoulder, and this "harsh" bow doesn't bother me one bit.

Bring on the Elite speedster!

sticshooter
02-27-2009, 01:35 AM
why don't you guys just buy rifles.i got a .243 that'll shoot 55 grain blitz kings at 4300 fps.is that fast enough or do we need to go faster.can you guys take your 350 fps second bows and go win the ibo world of triple crown.i've yet to see a bow shooting 340+ win any thing but mouth time.how come these boys from down south in ASA crank their bows down to 280fps and shoot the lights out.guys who who are ate up with speed tell me one thing,THEY CAN'T SHOOT!

Maybee-R
02-27-2009, 05:13 AM
why don't you guys just buy rifles.i got a .243 that'll shoot 55 grain blitz kings at 4300 fps.is that fast enough or do we need to go faster.can you guys take your 350 fps second bows and go win the ibo world of triple crown.i've yet to see a bow shooting 340+ win any thing but mouth time.how come these boys from down south in ASA crank their bows down to 280fps and shoot the lights out.guys who who are ate up with speed tell me one thing,THEY CAN'T SHOOT!
Check out the last three years Northwest triple crown IBO. It was one all three legs and the over all by the same guy. two years in a row 340 fps 82nd airborne. In the open class. 1 year was with his Allegiance doing 320+
The old school fast miss theory, is being ruined with todays fast accurate bows.:2thunbs:
Thats some shooting!!:guitar:

plotmoth
02-27-2009, 12:31 PM
Low brace height bows are extremely shootable, especially for short draw archers. The reason they can get such a bad wrap is due to the stereotype that it will take your wrist off and you can't hit the broadside of a barn. Personally I can't tell a difference between 6 or 7. It's due to the stubborn ignorant people who have never shot one and refuse to shoot one because they have been raised around the fact than anything under 7 inches is just unshootable.

P.Smash
02-27-2009, 12:38 PM
Low brace height bows are extremely shootable, especially for short draw archers. The reason they can get such a bad wrap is due to the stereotype that it will take your wrist off and you can't hit the broadside of a barn. Personally I can't tell a difference between 6 or 7. It's due to the stubborn ignorant people who have never shot one and refuse to shoot one because they have been raised around the fact than anything under 7 inches is just unshootable.
Amen brother, Testify!:applause:

cbarber
02-27-2009, 12:40 PM
why don't you guys just buy rifles.i got a .243 that'll shoot 55 grain blitz kings at 4300 fps.is that fast enough or do we need to go faster.can you guys take your 350 fps second bows and go win the ibo world of triple crown.i've yet to see a bow shooting 340+ win any thing but mouth time.how come these boys from down south in ASA crank their bows down to 280fps and shoot the lights out.guys who who are ate up with speed tell me one thing,THEY CAN'T SHOOT!


do the asa boys crank them down to 280 on their own will, or is that the limit? just courious.

RenegadeIndian
02-27-2009, 12:43 PM
right on the $$$$$ Corey! I have a 29" draw....i am a speed freak. Why? well lets just say a faster, heavier arrow knocks the crap out of the quarry and i LOVE that sound!

so bring it Elite!

So are you planning on sharing any of these speed bow specs anytime soon Frodo?? Or do you just want to keep it to yourself?? :kicku:

CATrapper
02-27-2009, 01:06 PM
[QUOTE=cbarber;191688]do the asa boys crank them down to 280 on their own will, or is that the limit? just courious.[/QUOTE

It's forced on us by stupid rules. I have to shoot over 500 grains and switch sights but I still use my 350 IBO bow.

cbarber
02-27-2009, 01:18 PM
so would they still crank them down without the speed limit rule?

CATrapper
02-27-2009, 01:37 PM
I wouldn't. I could actually use my hunting set up which is what I thought 3d was for. Practice.

Maybee-R
02-27-2009, 01:46 PM
I wouldn't. I could actually use my hunting set up which is what I thought 3d was for. Practice.
Started that way and turned in to "I can beat him if I had that on my bow thing" LOL! For me anyway. 3/d is what started the whole menagerie for me.:haha:

Daniel Boone
02-27-2009, 01:54 PM
so would they still crank them down without the speed limit rule?

Was and is made to give ever one I fair chance.(Short and long draw shooters) 280fps is plenty fast enough. Tom Crowe has shot 280fps for many years and doesnt change his speed for IBO. He won more than his share of events. If speed was so accurate like many are saying. Why dont the target archers(KNown Distance field shooters) shoot more speed?
DB

cbarber
02-27-2009, 01:58 PM
Was and is made to give ever one I fair chance.(Short and long draw shooters) 280fps is plenty fast enough. Tom Crowe has shot 280fps for many years and doesnt change his speed for IBO. He won more than his share of events. If speed was so accurate like many are saying. Why dont the target archers(KNown Distance field shooters) shoot more speed?
DB

i don't think speed "hurts" accuracy. i believe it's the indian, not the bow.
these guys would shoot light out at 280 or 350 imo.

RenegadeIndian
02-27-2009, 01:59 PM
Was and is made to give ever one I fair chance.(Short and long draw shooters) 280fps is plenty fast enough. Tom Crowe has shot 280fps for many years and doesnt change his speed for IBO. He won more than his share of events. If speed was so accurate like many are saying. Why dont the target archers(KNown Distance field shooters) shoot more speed?
DB

DB,
Cant you be fast and accurate at the same time??? Why is that such a hard concept to grasp??

CATrapper
02-27-2009, 02:02 PM
The fast bows will always have a mechanical advantage no matter what the speed limit is. A 500 grain arrow at 280 will buck the wind better than a 300 grain at the same speed so they are just trading one advantage for another by imposing speed limits.

Daniel Boone
02-27-2009, 02:04 PM
DB,
Cant you be fast and accurate at the same time??? Why is that such a hard concept to grasp??


It is a well known fact that if you screw up and dont have perfect form at 300 fps plus your going to miss alot farther due to the extra speed.
DB

Daniel Boone
02-27-2009, 02:06 PM
The fast bows will always have a mechanical advantage no matter what the speed limit is. A 500 grain arrow at 280 will buck the wind better than a 300 grain at the same speed so they are just trading one advantage for another by imposing speed limits.

Shoots the heaviest arrow in ASA. He shoots a 82lb bow at 280fps and his arrow is over 500grns. You are correct. But if the arrow is traveling at a great speed and the form is not right. Your going to miss farther away from the target. If were talking KE, then the heavier arrow wins hands down evertime.
DB

RenegadeIndian
02-27-2009, 02:10 PM
It is a well known fact that if you screw up and dont have perfect form at 300 fps plus your going to miss alot farther due to the extra speed.
DB

That is what practice is for......also, wouldnt the heavier arrows compensate for windage minimizing your error??

I suppose i see your argument too.....its just two different schools of thought.

But, at the end of the day, like all things competition, it is always mind over matter....

cbarber
02-27-2009, 02:12 PM
You are correct. But if the arrow is traveling at a great speed and the form is not right. Your going to miss farther away from the target.
DB

this i can not figure out, it makes no sence to me.
won't you miss the same? just takes longer to get off that far?
can someone please explain this

jkcerda
02-27-2009, 02:13 PM
It is a well known fact that if you screw up and dont have perfect form at 300 fps plus your going to miss alot farther due to the extra speed.
DB
lots of factors to consider.

my 82nd has a 6" BH, flies them out at 304 @26.5"DL:applause:

no problems hitting the target. now my GTO , only flies them at 284, 7" BH, doing well so far, the ATA on the 82nd helps a lot more than the BH on the GTO, at least for ME, that seems to be the case.:drunk:

Maybee-R
02-27-2009, 02:15 PM
this i can not figure out, it makes no sence to me.
won't you miss the same? just takes longer to get off that far?
can someone please explain this
I agree I think there is no proof. just speculation. I know if I miss its easy to say man this thing is touchy. when its my own fault.

RenegadeIndian
02-27-2009, 02:18 PM
this i can not figure out, it makes no sence to me.
won't you miss the same? just takes longer to get off that far?
can someone please explain this

I think he is referring to point of impact at faster speeds as opposed to slower speeds. But it all depends on where you end up resting your sight pin on the target.

Point of impact when you hold it an inch high at 280FPS will be a lot lower/wider than P.O.I at 300 FPS.

Bottom line, regarless of speed, if the form sucks you miss....period.

Daniel Boone
02-27-2009, 02:24 PM
lots of factors to consider.

my 82nd has a 6" BH, flies them out at 304 @26.5"DL:applause:

no problems hitting the target. now my GTO , only flies them at 284, 7" BH, doing well so far, the ATA on the 82nd helps a lot more than the BH on the GTO, at least for ME, that seems to be the case.:drunk:

Dont shot high speeds. Wonder why. Forgiveness! Im talking speed!
Most field shooters shoot around 260fps for accuracy.

Daniel Boone
02-27-2009, 02:27 PM
i don't think speed "hurts" accuracy. i believe it's the indian, not the bow.
these guys would shoot light out at 280 or 350 imo.


World class field shooters shoot 80yrds. They dont shoot fast speeds for good reasons. I garantee if faster sppeds were more accurate they would be shooting it. Arrow traveling faster diffiantly will miss farther than one traveling at 280. We all miss. Try shooting a 340fps at an indoor target and then shoot the same indoor target with 280 fps and see which hits closer the x evertime.
DB

ICH BIN
02-27-2009, 02:33 PM
It is a well known fact that if you screw up and dont have perfect form at 300 fps plus your going to miss alot farther due to the extra speed.
DB


this i can not figure out, it makes no sence to me.
won't you miss the same? just takes longer to get off that far?
can someone please explain this

There is two separate issues.

1) a faster bow will have less brace height, and more aggressive draw cycle.
This makes the bow harder to shoot accurately and small movements upon release are exaggerated because you are accelerating the arrow faster, and your bow "platform" is more prone to torque due to less BH. ( though this is not that much) Many people have trouble with low BH only becuase they develope flinches from being hit by strings. This does not mean low BH bows can't be shot well, just not by people with poor form, hand torque issues, or bows without suppressors.

2) Does an arrow traveling at a faster speed miss more because it is launched from a bow being torqued upon release? = no The torque on your handle produces a moment "twist" upon release, and this yields an "off" degree launch of the arrow. This degree of being "off" is the same miss in trajectory whether the arrow is leaving at 250fps or 300 fps. Any differential in vertical miss due to being "off" a degree, is only minute between the different speeds.

Having more speed does mean your misses vertically are less, but very very little. At most an inch, at longer ranges, and bows shooting 50+fps difference in speed.

Hope this made sense.

E

CATrapper
02-27-2009, 02:36 PM
I would like some scientific reason for your "well known fact" DB. Field shooters don't need speed because they shoot known distances. I like my "slow" setup on known distances also but I prefer more speed when hunting. If you apply your theory to guns I can promise that it is not true and since arrows are still projectiles, I'm also having trouble grasping it. Funny thing is that is the same number that they said broadheads quit flying well at.

ICH BIN
02-27-2009, 02:36 PM
World class field shooters shoot 80yrds. They dont shoot fast speeds for good reasons. I garantee if faster sppeds were more accurate they would be shooting it. Arrow traveling faster diffiantly will miss farther than one traveling at 280. We all miss. Try shooting a 340fps at an indoor target and then shoot the same indoor target with 280 fps and see which hits closer the x evertime.
DB

DB there is more to it than just speed.

Lower poudage.
Heavier arrows hold flight and are less affected by wind.
Bigger BH bows.
Less reflex or a deflex riser.
Smooth gradual cams vs. aggressive.

While these changes lead to more speed, it is not the speed of the arrow once in flight that is hindering accuracy. It is what is required to get the arrow to that speed that leads to less accuracy.

E

RenegadeIndian
02-27-2009, 02:37 PM
There is two separate issues.

1) a faster bow will have less brace height, and more aggressive draw cycle.
This makes the bow harder to shoot accurately and small movements upon release are exaggerated because you are accelerating the arrow faster, and your bow "platform" is more prone to torque due to less BH. ( though this is not that much) Many people have trouble with low BH only becuase they develope flinches from being hit by strings. This does not mean low BH bows can't be shot well, just not by people with poor form, hand torque issues, or bows without suppressors.

2) Does an arrow traveling at a faster speed miss more because it is launched from a bow being torqued upon release? = no The torque on your handle produces a moment "twist" upon release, and this yields an "off" degree launch of the arrow. This degree of being "off" is the same miss in trajectory whether the arrow is leaving at 250fps or 300 fps. Any differential in vertical miss due to being "off" a degree, is only minute between the different speeds.

Having more speed does mean your misses vertically are less, but very very little. At most an inch, at longer ranges, and bows shooting 50+fps difference in speed.

Hope this made sense.

E


Thank you.............

Daniel Boone
02-27-2009, 02:38 PM
There is two separate issues.

1) a faster bow will have less brace height, and more aggressive draw cycle.
This makes the bow harder to shoot accurately and small movements upon release are exaggerated because you are accelerating the arrow faster, and your bow "platform" is more prone to torque due to less BH. ( though this is not that much) Many people have trouble with low BH only becuase they develope flinches from being hit by strings. This does not mean low BH bows can't be shot well, just not by people with poor form, hand torque issues, or bows without suppressors.

2) Does an arrow traveling at a faster speed miss more because it is launched from a bow being torqued upon release? = no The torque on your handle produces a moment "twist" upon release, and this yields an "off" degree launch of the arrow. This degree of being "off" is the same miss in trajectory whether the arrow is leaving at 250fps or 300 fps. Any differential in vertical miss due to being "off" a degree, is only minute between the different speeds.

Having more speed does mean your misses vertically are less, but very very little. At most an inch, at longer ranges, and bows shooting 50+fps difference in speed.

Hope this made sense.

E

IBO guys shoot more speed because it helps if you judge a few yards off.

Missing a inch in field shooting is very costly. Known distance speed is not a big concern.

I know many guys who have won the IBO Pro class with lower sppeds. Bobby Ketcher is one that comes to mind. BUt he great a judging yardage.

Personaly for myself I dont get the groups over 300 fps as good as under 290fps.
DB
DB

ICH BIN
02-27-2009, 03:21 PM
An example.

1) 70lb bow, 350 grain arrow, 30"dl, with stuff on string = 340 fps
At 30 yards the drop is 14 inches
at 40 yards the drop is 26 inches

2) 70 lb bow, 500 grain arrow, 30"DL, with stuff on string = 290 fps
at 30 yards the drop is 19 inches
at 40 yards the drop is 35 inches

At first glance you think whooah... 9 inches is huge, but you forget that you have sighted in this 9 inch drop already. So you have to say how much am I off if I misjudge the target by a yard, or two at 40 yards out? I don't have the exact calcs but this example should come out to about only .5" advantage by shooting the faster bow.

Since I can't shoot 4" groups all day at 40 yards, I don't really care if the bow shoots 280, or 310, I'm not good enough anyway for it to matter.

E

cbarber
02-27-2009, 07:14 PM
o.k. now that all of that is out of the way-
if you could have a bow with specs of your choice-doesn't matter, whatever you want.

lets say specs of: bow a
37" axle to axle
7.5" brace height
60 lbs
ibo 280fps

bow b
37" axle to axle
7.5" brace height
60lbs
ibo 340fps

they are both the exact same-only difference is speed

is the slow one more accurate?

Daniel Boone
02-27-2009, 08:58 PM
I would like some scientific reason for your "well known fact" DB. Field shooters don't need speed because they shoot known distances. I like my "slow" setup on known distances also but I prefer more speed when hunting. If you apply your theory to guns I can promise that it is not true and since arrows are still projectiles, I'm also having trouble grasping it. Funny thing is that is the same number that they said broadheads quit flying well at.

Im talking tournament accuracy. Ill also shoot against your speed with broadheads. But with todays mechanical broadheads you might just might shot accurate. I know what works for myself. Speed isnt the name of the game for me. Its accuracy.
DB

Daniel Boone
02-27-2009, 09:01 PM
DB there is more to it than just speed.

Lower poudage.
Heavier arrows hold flight and are less affected by wind.
Bigger BH bows.
Less reflex or a deflex riser.
Smooth gradual cams vs. aggressive.

While these changes lead to more speed, it is not the speed of the arrow once in flight that is hindering accuracy. It is what is required to get the arrow to that speed that leads to less accuracy.

E


Still will argue your not going to shoot as accurate with 330 fps as you can at under 300. You can do your own test on this and let me know how it works out. You let me know how that 6" brace heigth shoots.
DB
DB

Daniel Boone
02-27-2009, 09:04 PM
o.k. now that all of that is out of the way-
if you could have a bow with specs of your choice-doesn't matter, whatever you want.

lets say specs of: bow a
37" axle to axle
7.5" brace height
60 lbs
ibo 280fps

bow b
37" axle to axle
7.5" brace height
60lbs
ibo 340fps

they are both the exact same-only difference is speed

is the slow one more accurate?

If you torgue the 340 fps bow. Your going to miss by alot.

If you torgue the bow at 280 you will have a chance to be in the target. You can try this at 20yrds on a five spot. Pretty simple test.
DB

Daniel Boone
02-27-2009, 09:17 PM
But he right on in this post. For most a little less speed would be better.

1.) Stiff draw cycles are the norm. Stiff isn't bad though as long as it is smooth.

2.) Some draw cycles will be harsh (cam break over/ HARSH dump in to the valley) but not all of them are harsh. These are the bows that will leave you second guessing your choice on those cold days.

3.) The biggest draw back from shooting a very fast arrow is the fact that your form HAS to be perfect or else the arrow is not going where you want it to. Let's face it, in the real world of hunting our form is not always perfect.

4.) Finally, the faster the arrow goes the harder it is to get a fixed blade broadhead to fly. It's not impossible to get them to fly but it is more difficult. Of course you can get your bow all tuned up then shoot a quality mechanical head to avoid the broadhead tuning pain.


In the hands of the right shooter I wouldn't necessarily call them draw backs by any means but in the hands of a less experienced archer it could lead to a lot of headaches and in the worst case scenario; wounded animals http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/images/smilies/gif/embarassed.gif. Now that being said, in the hands of the right shooter speed equals more kinetic energy and a flatter trajectory that not only helps a LITTLE BIT with range estimation errors but the fact that your arrow is flying flatter through the woods will open up a few more shooting lanes to you that a slower bow might not.


One final note, inside of 30 yards you are not going to gain anything with an extra 20 fps so I wouldn't go sacrificing some smoothness for speed if you are the up close and personal kind of hunter. However, if your shots are frequently 40 yards and out it just might be worth the trade off for a little more zing.

Maybee-R
02-27-2009, 09:26 PM
Good points DB. But remember your not explaining this to the average joe. Most of the guys that are arguing with you know how to shoot. and have some of the best forms around. Elite has drawn in some of the better shooters looking for the best of Archery equipment. This isn't like some of the other forums where a lot of the members are novice beginners. JMO!

plotmoth
02-27-2009, 09:32 PM
Still don't understand why a slower arrow is more accurate. Seems to me that a faster arrow spends less time in the air so it has less chance for variables to affect it.

cbarber
02-27-2009, 09:59 PM
i hope no one sees this as a fight or arguement. lets not turn it into that.

good points by both sides.

heck i shoot a slow bow for spots(not really slow by some peoples standards) and a fast bow for 3d and hunting.

but i have shot some pretty good scores by my standards-some even better(compared to my spot slow bow) with my gto and gt500

cbarber
02-27-2009, 10:00 PM
Still don't understand why a slower arrow is more accurate. Seems to me that a faster arrow spends less time in the air so it has less chance for variables to affect it.

it also spends less time on the string.....

Daniel Boone
02-27-2009, 10:14 PM
Good points DB. But remember your not explaining this to the average joe. Most of the guys that are arguing with you know how to shoot. and have some of the best forms around. Elite has drawn in some of the better shooters looking for the best of Archery equipment. This isn't like some of the other forums where a lot of the members are novice beginners. JMO!

I shoot 300 50X to 55X. I have my flaws. Tell me what you consider great form. I consider great form someone that can shoot a 300 60X consistant. I realize what kind of shooters are here.

Tell me what you consider good form(Score)? Maybee, I want you to do something for me. Shoot a round of five spot with 270fps and shoot a round at 320fps. Let me know how your score is for both. I would think for most a 320. Achieving a 300 would be diffiacult.
DB

Daniel Boone
02-27-2009, 10:16 PM
i hope no one sees this as a fight or arguement. lets not turn it into that.

good points by both sides.

heck i shoot a slow bow for spots(not really slow by some peoples standards) and a fast bow for 3d and hunting.

but i have shot some pretty good scores by my standards-some even better(compared to my spot slow bow) with my gto and gt500

All about explaining my point. I have disscussed this with many really good shooters. Everyone has to find what works for them. Im saying why I choose to shoot under 300fps hunting and tournament.
DB